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Waveney & District WoodturnersMember Articles On this page, you will find articles of a general woodturning interest, written by members of Waveney & District Woodturners. Copyright of the articles remains with the author, and no responsibility for content is accepted by the website owner. Any opinions expressed are solely those of their respective author. Reply to the debate from Richard Pye
Uh!! I have just finished reading the comments made about designs, computer designs, software, cad, university degrees, ect ect. I do hope we are not entering into a game of one upmanship.
So, lets give the subject some thought, designing on the computer the ideas that go into the computer are coming from the mind of the person sitting at the key board, alright the computer allows you to take a straight line and bend it any which way you like, then look at the end result and even lets you see the object in three D, blimey how clever. Now lets go to the lathe, the person standing in front of it hasn’t got a key board in front of him or her they have a chisel or gouge instead, they haven’t got a monitor in front of them just a piece of wood.
The person in front of the computer and the person’s in front of the lathe are both doing the same thing designing an object. Now then, person on the computer has finished the design done a print out, into the workshop found a nice piece of wood, started turning cuts into the wood find a void or blemish cannot follow there design so what does he do to keep to his design Get another piece of wood?.
Person on lathe with chisel in hand has a good idea what they want from there piece of wood, o dear a blemish now what do they do, they automatically re-design as they go along and job done.
So speaking as a fine old craftsman I can not see what all the fuss is about, we never had the aid of computers when I was a lad. Lets hear no more of, I’ve got this and I’ve got that, if people want to be helpful and constructive do so with out so much boasting .
Richard P Reply to Colin’s comments
I will make one apology to members in that the original article Colin refers to had a small sketch alongside each of the descriptions CONCAVE, CONVEX and FLAT due to a technical hitch down to Microsoft the drawings disappeared during publication. At no point did I intimate that members did not know what a concave bevel is. On the basis of this criticism I am doomed if I do and doomed if I don’t. The article was mainly intended to help beginners or the slightly more experienced who may have lost their way with tool sharpening. If I waded straight in and started talking about technical issues without any explanation I would undoubtedly be accused of getting too technical. (Reference to design article) I have just opened a book by Ray Key ( for those who may not know the name he is one of the UK’s leading authorities on woodturning) The book is titled “Woodturning & Design” in the opening chapters he has physically drawn a picture with a written description of each type of chisel used in turning. Is he wrong in doing this after all we all know what a gouge looks like. Or do we?
You then went on to suggest maybe I should have used your following words “to say that there are lots of nice pieces on the table that could become even nicer if a bit more time was spent on getting tools sharp”
the wording in the article reads “I sometimes feel if only this person had turned this object with sharp chisels it would have been so much nicer.” I would have thought this was pretty close.
I can not see in the article where I have described members work as having torn grain etc. What I did say in the form of a question is “WHAT ARE THE SIGNS OF POOR TURNING”? then going on to describe them.
My question to you Colin is do we want this excellent members web site put together and run by Andy, who undoubtedly puts in a considerable amount of unpaid time for the benefit of all the club members who are able to reach it, much in the way that the committee beavers away in the background to organise meetings and great year end party nights and rarely gets a thanks. I did over a decade as Chairman of the North Suffolk group so I do know and appreciate the time and effort you and your committee put in, I’ve done my good deed and do not want to take a front line seat. However unless the club has “ACTIVE” members it gets very hard for the committee to be enthusiastic. I think this club does have a very good balance of enthusiastic committee members and active members, you only have to take a look at the members table each month to see this. What Andy has set up is just another way of progressing forward, nobody is forcing anybody to take part, I read Ken’s comments with interest and thought this is how I can become an active member, after all I walked away with the clubs Darby Challenge Cup so why should n’t I give something back to the club in return, I don’t want any thanks, glory or payment. I’ve already been contacted by enthusiastic members wanting to know more about sharpening, that is all the thanks I want. My passion is woodworking in all it’s forms, my weakness as well as chocolate is that I thoroughly enjoy passing on any help and advice I can to other like minded individuals. I do not see how your last posting is of any benefit or interest to members, however if you or any other members prefers their scrapers ground at 60 degrees instead of the 80 degrees I currently use and mention in the article, then great get on line tell me I’m wrong, we can all join in and maybe tell the world the ideal scraping angle is 65 degrees.
Mike O’Connor Reply from Colin Barber:
A note on Mike's sharpening piece:
While I agree with Mike's points on sharp tools, sanding Etc., I must disagree that most of our members don't know what a concave, convex, flute, and bevel are. What I'm about to say is the only the way I personally would said some of the points Mike brings up. But that's my way, rightly or wrongly.
Surely rather than saying work exhibited on the club table has been turned by members who have not got sharp chisels, and they show signs of bad turning such as torn grain, lines on the bottom of bowls, and no crisp edges Etc., wouldn't it be much nicer, and more constructive, to say that there are lots of nice pieces on the table that could become even nicer if a bit more time was spent on getting tools sharp, and spending a bit more time on sanding and the finishing process?
Reply by Ken Rogers
Thanks to Mike and Colin for their comments on my letter, to which numerous valid points were raised to which I also fully agree with. It was nice to see other members use this forum to give their points of view in a friendly and constructive manner and I hope other will have their say. Most members’ use the internet so don’t be afraid to join in, a few lines is okay. So to keep the ball rolling here are a few more lines.
Wood Turning
I suppose at the end of the day it all comes down to a personnel preference, and pride in what we achieve. As Colin stated most of our members are hobby-turners and do it for enjoyment and therefore have no intentions of using computers to design pieces or going for professional status although some of the items displayed on the “Table” are more than worthy.
Mike's carved bowl at the Christmas meeting was a first class piece of work, and really stood out from the other items. Mike's article explaining the “thought process” in producing the item was extremely interesting to me. Besides the use of the computer for achieving the template for the scroll, a large percentage of the process was actually considering the piece of wood itself – the best way to use the grain – how to use the natural figuring – where to place the carving etc. The finish shape and tool work has come from many hours of practice and perfecting his style of work.
For me the points that Mike made are most relevant and I personally will try to consider them more when producing a turned piece. It is so easy to start turning - producing nice heaps of shaving and then lose all control of what is being made. With a little more time spent planning for the completed item, and this is what I would consider design is all about, then we can all hopefully produce better items and hence enhance woodturning in general.
ART, well it really is a can of worms. What is art to one person is a heap of dung to another. I must admit that before taking up woodturning I never considered the possibility that it could possibly be considered as some form of art. Craftsmanship yes, but art? But as woodturning progresses with colouring, inlays, carvings, texturing etc. I can see that it is on par with the traditional themes of paintings and ceramics which most people recognise as being art. The most difficult thing to achieve is actually getting it recognised as art by the art fraternity, how many galleries do you see that include woodturnings? Ill end there for the time being.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE Ken Rogers 19/12/06 Reply from Colin BarberHaving read Ken and Mike's comments on Philip Streeting's talk on shape and design, coupled with their own thoughts on the subject, I thought I must add a thought or two of my own on the subject. While not agreeing with all Philip's ideas I thought there were lots of points and ideas that could be taken on board and learnt from. The only thing I'm worried about with all this talk about computer design and degrees Etc., is that we lose sight of the fact that 90% of our members turn wood purely for the pleasure they get from doing just that. I would hate to think we are now going to want them to get involved with the internet, with all the emails, blogs, and everything else connected with this modern way forward.
The club has grown because we do keep things simple by encouraging all members to to do what they want to do, and get pleasure from. This does not mean that we do not want to improve skills and create a higher standard of turning, we do, and the club table each month shows that this is happening.
The computer age is here, and we have a website, it's up to each member whether or not they use it.
Colin Barber – Chairman W&DWT Reply to Previous Letter By Mike O'ConnorI have to agree with Ken’s comments regarding Phillips presentations, I don’t know if it is our up-bringing and career backgrounds that make us both have similar views. I too am an apprenticed engineer (but without the BA degree) my work over the past 40 years has involved the design of machine tools and all sorts of marine and engineering bit and bobs. So whether it is the change from steel to wood that makes us a bit sceptical I do not know, it would be interesting to hear other member’s comments.
Firstly well done Andy for at least trying to bring some design influence in to the club. I think Phillips presentation was poor, it could have been made a lot more humorous and biased a little more towards the beginners or should I be more polite and say the less experienced, after all we are all beginners each time we venture in to a new concept, but with experience you can usually get over the hurdles.
If any members have a computer and I guess a fair portion do, otherwise there is only 3 of us following this debate, then most of Phillips presentation can be wrapped up in a ready made software package developed specifically for Woodturners which not only allows you to move Phillips “chain” now called a spline, around on your computer screen, bend it, fatten it, stretch it, and while you are doing this to one half of the object, the computer is copying all your moves to replicate the other half (mirror) and at the same time creating a 3-dimensional view of the object as you go. You can then rotate this 3-D view from any angle you want and when you are more or less happy and you are going to make the object from Yew select Yew from a supplied list of common timbers in use, select a grain direction, click and your 3-D image is now coloured (rendered) in a pretty close match to the real thing. Next you go on to add dimensions, save it in your own gallery for future use, print it out and off you go to the lathe.
I’m not going to say this is a must or even worth contemplating, but for turners who really would like to create their own “SHAPE” rather than copy someone else’s work then at about 80 odd pounds it is quite a useful fun aid to what is currently being described as design and I’ve already given the game away by saying “CREATE A SHAPE”. So I guess we come back to Ken’s question What is a designer? To keep it simple let’s keep this to “BOWLS” what is a bowl, has it already been designed, my answer is yes. Therefore are we actually talking about bowl design or are we really saying lets develop a shape that is pleasing to the eye (and they are all going to be different) and functional or fit for purpose. This is where I start to move away from Ken’s ideas, or at least I think I do.
I’ll continue to use the word design for now, where do I start, well contrary to Phillips presentation and to what the computer can not see, I personally start with the chunk of wood I am going to use, in Ken’s case he generally only has 50% of the problem I have, a Malee burr is going to normally have the bobbly bits on the outside, so that’s problem one out of the way you know where you are going to hollow it out and all you need to do is “design” a shape. Given that you have a chunk of ash been chain sawn in to a rectangle from a 800mm dia. Trunk, my first task is to look at the block very carefully from all angles, look at the spacing between the growth rings, are they closer together on one side? Is there any discoloration running through the block, does it have any unsightly flaws, or does it have any unusual features? This I sometimes do over a couple of days or more just mulling over in my head over how I perceive the finished bowl to look, how do I get a curve in the correct place to accentuate a feature to it’s best. Neither Phillips ideas or the ready made computer package take any of this in to account.
As a practical guide my winning piece at the Christmas dinner went through exactly this process, for those of you who were really looking, neither the scroll or the fluted carving ran in to the discoloured portion of the vessel, it was planned fairly precisely this way, also the fluted carving needed to run as much as possible with the grain. How did I go about it, I chose the top face first then mounted it on the lathe and just cleaned up the face and edge to see what I had got, took some accurate measurements and sorry Ken I went and sat at my computer. Like Ken I can speak with some authority as I have an accreditation from Autodesk in the use of AutoCad (computer aided design) still not as good as a BA though. I set about drawing the plan view of the object marked where the grain colour appeared and the grain direction, then using the spline function of the software I plotted the course of the scroll and added in the carved flute area, made all the adjustment till I the “designer” was happy with the result, printed this out full size, carefully cut along the scroll line with scissors, placed it on the bowl blank (which now had the top face fully turned) rotated it around to the desired and planned position, stuck it down with masking tape and marked the scroll line on to the timber, removed the paper template and carved the bowl. Took it to the club meeting and won the competition.
I guess there is a bit of what Phillip was trying to get over in there, but I think he needs to get a bit more practical experience in woodturning and what other people like, I for one did not like any of his work on display, some was clever but not appealing. In my world there is a place for Computer aided design, but probably because I already have that skill. I guess at the end of this you can not rule out “DESIGN” or “CREATE A SHAPE” but each individual should think about it more before they get carried away to get knee deep in shavings, I have to admit that I have seen a number of pieces on the table at club meetings quite nicely turned, a beautiful piece of wood and badly thought out or “DESIGNED” if you wish.
Maybe we could start off another debate what is art and what is craft, Ken I think you may have opened a can of worms with this one, is a nicely turned bowl with no artificial colouring or ornate resins or metals added a piece of art or a “finely crafted piece of work” is a hollow form, ebonised on the inside and mottled like Joseph’s multi-coloured coat in every conceivable shade of acrylic earth colour, beautifully turned, yet no sign of any timber, is this a piece of finely crafted work or is it a wonderful “striking piece of artwork” the debate will go on for ever is my guess. Mike O’Connor Subject – “Design” By Ken Rogers
Well where to start!! I managed to sit through Mr Streeting presentation at last Thursdays club night and was not very impressed, and no way could I bring myself to be exposed to a second session.
I think I need to state that my academic qualifications include a BA from the Open University which includes credits for engineering design, an apprenticeship as a fitter and turner and membership of a professional engineering institute being just a few, and therefore qualified to make some comments
I admire Mr Streeting's passion for design but I feel it is being focused in the wrong direction and to the wrong group of people.
What is a designer? a) Is it a person who expands an idea and brings it to life? Their own or someone else’s b) takes an existing object and changes it – modify it c) enhances an object in his or hers point of view. d) Just a name anyone can call themselves? e) Professional person, status - recognition
Oh dear this seems to be heading for the old chestnut of Plagiarism, so I better change tract
I would suggest that Mr Streeting tries to sell some of his woodturning designs before trying to preach his passion to others. I suspect that after seeing some examples of his work he would find it difficult and certainly would not make a living from them.
From my experience very few designers actual physically make the final item, as they get the craftsman/ skilled engineer to do this. Perfect and pleasing shapes /curves can be drawn and reproduced by computer controlled machines, but the wood turner is attempting to achieve this by hand and eye. This only comes with practice after mastering the use of various tools and technique. One does not have to produce precise drawings to design – some of the best have been produced on the back of a “cigarette packet” as a very basic sketch/idea.
What is the difference between a designed object and a crafted item? I suggest it is only the Price and this really depends on the name of the designer. A suit from a well known designer will cost over £800, an identical design from a high street brand will cost £I50 Which is the best – if the labels are removed it is hard to tell the difference. The average turned bowl sells for about £30 in this area of the country due to under-pricing - another old Chestnut –only the top known turners make high prices. So the question has to be asked if it is worth spending hours on so called designing – the time would better be spent on practising and refining to get the required item, which in turn could be called design. I could spend a lot of time producing drawings, either by hand or using CAD (computer aided design), then making templates etc. but is it worth it for a one off item. If I was producing large quantities of a single item I would then seriously consider doing this.
One area in which I do agree is that wood turners are not very good at presenting their work as art. The art world is something else and can be very snobbish and self centred (and so called designers can be included), and woodturning is a very small and exclusive sector within it. It is an area in which more of our work should be presented. Most galleries are centred around paintings (oils, water colours, acrylic, abstracts etc., ceramics , glass, and sculptures( bronze, stone etc.) and woodturning is deemed to be craft work. There are quite a few small so-called galleries that are selling local artist’s work which also display craft ware and some of our members use them.
Another area to be considered is the way in which we present our work for sale and I am guilty as the rest in filling a table with as many items as possible. The poor potential buyer cannot “see the wood from the trees”. In hind site I realise that on my table at the last Southwold club sale they were over 110 individual items. With 6 members displaying their work there was about 600 to 700 pieces for sale. This just overwhelms the public and makes it difficult for them to decide what to buy hence the under priced item will always win. This is a fact and not soar-grapes chaps.
Would we get better prices and sell more if there was less choice with high standard work. I guess we would – what are other member’s views?
I seem to have gone off tract from the subject of design but feel these subjects do need to be discussed/aired and a good argument can be fun.
On another note I would like to wish all the club members and their families a merry Christmas and a happy new year.
17th November 2006
Ken Rogers: Lathe Problems
This week has been a disaster for woodturning, and I am now out of action for some time. So my wife has now got me to start decorating at last. Oh for a few quite hours in the shed!
I was turning a nice out of balance oak burr on my Poolwood 2840 when suddenly it started to make a strange noise followed by loud clanging and the whole machine bouncing up and down before I could hit the emergency stop. The top cover of the head stock was removed and the drive pulleys where obviously out of line and the belt slightly frayed. So I started to strip down the complete drive and things went down hill from there. Talk about bad design and engineering practices!!
Having taken out the grub screws from both pulleys neither would move on the motor shaft or main shaft. The grub screws had been locked straight onto the shafts without dimpling and the pulleys had picked up and seized. After some persuasion the motor pulley was withdrawn but with some minor damage as it is made of aluminium. The pulley on the main shaft (aluminium) had been the cause of the problem it had moved against the grub screw badly scoring the shaft and thus seizing. The only way of moving it along the shaft was by brute force –in the form of a big hammer. The next step was to remove the main shaft. The shaft is located in the head stock on two tapped roller bearings and tightened by the indexing collar on a left –hand thread.
Yes!!! The collar was located by another grub screw that went straight down onto the thread. The collar started to turn then it seized .After turning it back and forwards spraying it with penetrating oil it finally came off but alas two threads on the shaft had been severely damaged.
All the parts are now with an engineering company for repair/replacement and check of alignment etc. The motor shaft has got a keyway machined into it, but the pulley had not been machined – obviously a cost saving exercise.
I have had the lathe for about 8 years from new and cost about £1300, and was one of the last to be built when Pool wood was based in Nottingham and went into liquidation. It is a solid machine with variable speed, but obviously has flaws in it mechanical design and assembly methods. These types of issues never happen when the machine is new and only manifest a long time after any warranty period has expired.
I would like to make other club members aware of possible similar situations. The lathe is most probably the most expensive item that we wood turners purchase and needs to be maintained. If like me large out of balance/offset turning is done there are at times excessive stress, centrifugal forces and vibrations exerted onto the drive parts of the lathe. It is good engineering practice to check the condition of moving parts for security and belts for sign of wear etc, but how many of us actually do this – I expect like me only when something goes wrong!!
Ken Rogers September 2006
After a frustrating wait for Ken, he finally has an update for us:
Finally managed to get the lathe repaired after five weeks out of action .Had problems getting the seal on the chuck end of the head stock, turns out it was a special – so I have obtained a spare for the future.
In desperation to get turning I tried to fit a seal which was slightly smaller one with one millimetre less diameter but after a couple of minutes running there was a strong smell of burning rubber and the shaft became very hot.
For the past few weeks I have been sharpening my tools and cutting up wood ready for the long awaited day when the lathe would be ready. I think the band saw now needs a bit of attention, especially a new blade.
Today was the day – spent a couple of hours turning (no big lumps yet!!) and the lathe seems fine so should have something for the club table on Thursday.
Now that the repairs are completed and a few items have been turned I think it would be wise to check the security of the pulleys etc.
Ken Rodgers 7th October 2006 |
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